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    • #243

      andypandy
      Participant

      According to President Emmanuel Macron the Uk should pay more for the migrants in the jungle camps of Calais. Surely these “refugees” aren’t going to be persecuted in France (or whatever European country they first come to) and they are only camping outside in France because they are economic migrants. So why should the UK tax payer foot the bill?

      What are your thoughts?

      *FYI I have no prejudices about actual real refugees coming to this country to escape danger.

    • #244

      Katy
      Participant

      Presumably the logic is:

      1. The Le Touquet agreement allows the UK to put an immigration control on french soil.

      2. According to UK law people can only apply for asylum once they are already on UK soil.

      3. So asylum seekers wishing to get to the UK get stuck in Calais.

      4. Somebody has to pick up the bill.

      5. Currently that somebody is the French tax payer.

      6. Since these people want to get to the UK and the UK is not letting them, it could be argued that the UK is at least partly responsible.

      I should say, I don’t know whether there are already provisions in the Le Tourquet agreement to share costs.

    • #245

      jill
      Participant

      What’s stopping the French government opening the border and then closing their eyes to who want’s to exit France?

    • #246

      sarah
      Participant

      Yeah “camping” in Calais in January, right… That sounds nice.

      Oh yeah and police are actually seizing their “camping” gear and are generally not funny people

      https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/07/26/living-hell/police-abuses-against-child-and-adult-migrants-calais

      But it’s ok, they are economic migrants, whatever that is supposed to mean. They are lured from Eritrea or Syria (where they certainly lived comfortable lives, give or take war and/or dictatorship) by the prospects of bitcoin mining I am sure.

    • #247

      andypandy
      Participant

      @sarah They are in France. A perfectly fine country. Why don’t you go invite them to live in your house then?

    • #252

      elly
      Participant

      What’s stopping the French government opening the border and then closing their eyes to who want’s to exit France?

      “The UK operates border controls in France and Belgium. This allows Border Force officers to check passengers and freight destined for the UK before they begin their journey.”

      Fact sheet: The UK’s juxtaposed border controls


      @sarah
      your an idiot! you would have to barking mad to let in these people without checks. They could easily be terrorists, criminals or rapists etc…

    • #254

      billy
      Participant

      “The UK operates border controls in France and Belgium. This allows Border Force officers to check passengers and freight destined for the UK before they begin their journey.”


      @elly
      And this will still be the case after March next year?

    • #255

      elly
      Participant

      @billy The Le Touquet agreement is a bilateral agremment between France and UK so not in theory related to Brexit but renegotiation could be used as leverage in Brexit talks.

      That said, a fuller answer to your original post would be that the French also benefit from the Le Tourquet agreement: the agreement makes it harder for people to apply for refugee / asylum status in the UK, so most likely reduces the steady stream of migrants traipsing through france hoping to get to the UK.

      The UK does already pay for much of the border infrastructure in Calais under the terms of the Le Tourquet agreement. Not sure how much but according to Politico it is “hundreds of millions of pounds” between 2003 and 2016.

      • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by elly.
    • #257

      sam
      Participant

      They are in France. A perfectly fine country.


      @andypandy
      True. But the chances are most of the refugees, if they speak a second language speak English. Do you think they would have a better chance of rebuilding their shattered lives in France or the UK in this situation? What would you do in that situation?

    • #258

      tom
      Participant

      Should we pay for (or contribute towards) the French police stopping illegal migrants getting to the UK? Yes.

      Should we be buying migrants? not so much.

    • #262

      frosty
      Participant

      They are in France. A perfectly fine country.

      Indeed. A refugee is supposed to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach, not continue to another of choice.

    • #263

      callum
      Participant

      Indeed. A refugee is supposed to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach, not continue to another of choice.


      @frosty
      No they’re not. The Dublin Convention / Dublin Regulation II – which is an EU regulation – determines that the first EU member state which an asylum seeker enters is responsible for processing their asylum request. The asylum seeker may apply for asylum in the second EU member state they enter (ie they may cross Hungary and apply for asylum in Germany) but this state has the right to return them to the first EU state they entered (e.g. Germany could send them back to be processed in Hungary).

      This principle is a way for the EU to determine which member state should process asylum applicants; it doesn’t apply outside the EU, nor does it imply any obligation on an asylum seeker / refugee.

      It will, of course, not apply to the UK after Brexit.

    • #264

      joe
      Participant

      Some general thoughts about this issue: since France got more strict about this issue, the UK has seen a slight increase in the numbers of asylum seekers entering the UK. My view is that contrary to public perception, this is because currently a large % of asylum seekers arrive in the UK via airports, with an increase in people from Iran and Iraq (together with a decrease of people from Eritrea and Sudan).

      Regarding paying France: I say ‘yes’ – this is a global issue/problem that requires a coordinated response. And this nonsense that refugees should have to claim asylum in the first safe country is un-workable – places far too much unfair burden on other countries. Remember also that the UK is about 17th on the global list of ‘who takes most refugees’. I sense the matter is become more complex because large numbers of people from Africa are entering Europe, many of whom are simply seeking a better life (i.e. economic migrants).

    • #265

      dave
      Participant

      I can’t understand why France doesn’t just arrest them and put them in a jail until they can be deported, is just due to the sheer numbers/cost? They are in France illegally, if they needed refuge then I’m sure France would be happy to process them and put them in a suitable french refugee camp. But if they refuse then they aren’t anything but illegal immigrants and should be treated like any other lawbreaker in a foreign land.

      I don’t mind the idea of genuine short-term help to a small number of people who want it but what annoys me is the sense of entitlement they seem to think they have. We can’t have a situation where anyone living in a country with a bit of conflict rumbling on or with a government we’d consider a bit authoritarian to then effectively have a worldwide free travel pass to go settle in any country of their choosing and be treated to a free ride for life. It’s all very well offering help and aid and all the rest of it, but the sheer number of people who could in theory claim that status would be enough to overwhelm most of Europe, never mind the UK.

    • #266

      angrydude
      Participant

      They are in France. A perfectly fine country.

      This is a silly argument. So all African/middle East migrants should stay at the first fine/safe country they get to. Basically Italy, Greece et al get swamped by 20 million plus people. That country collapses, they move on. The next country collapses..

      If we just redistribute those at need like we have done in the past then there’s less risk to neighbouring countries. Right now countries like the US are morally bankrupt for turning their backs on those at need. Our priest gave a great speech at Christmas telling the congregation to no longer call themselves Christian if they will turn a refugee from their door.

      • #267

        andypandy
        Participant

        @angrydude its not up to your priest to decide that people are not Christians just because they don’t want their country being taken over by mostly MUSLIM economics migrants! These migrants who see the uk as an easy target and want to rape our country both metaphorically and literally. Yes there are genuine refugees in the jungles that need help but the vast majority just want to take advantage of the uk.

    • #276

      mick
      Participant

      The Bexit/Dublin convention is intersting, as currently we send back a few hundred asylum seekers to their ‘first’ country, yet receive only a few dozen the other way round (Italy get a few thousand returned to them but send back only a few hundred). My guess is Brexit may mean an increase in numbers of asylum seekers.

    • #278

      mo
      Participant

      @archer why should they?

      They make a home in their new host country, marry, have kids, why uproot them.

    • #280

      isac
      Participant

      They want a safe life? Free life? Entitled brats…


      @mo
      It may seem hard to believe from where we live but none of us is entitled to safety and freedom. We have it because over centuries we’ve forged strong nations with stable democratic governments to keep the peace and powerful armies to defend ourselves with. Collectively we’ve earnt our safety and our freedom.

      Many populations haven’t managed this, or have to a lesser degree than ours have. In fact, life for most people on the planet is far less safe and free than ours is, it’s the harsh reality of the world for most people. I’m not against helping people out who are in dire need but a firm line needs to be drawn on who is in charge here, it’s the one providing the care not the one seeking it.

      If someone decides they don’t care about their own countries future enough to fight for it and instead want to run away and seek shelter at the mercy of another more secure state then that is their choice. But once they leave their own country, assuming the neighbouring country agrees to take them in, they are at the mercy of that counties authorities. The neighbouring country may ask other states if they will help share the burden and if they agree then maybe they’ll be shipped on to other places, they may even be offered a preference if there is more than one option but the point is it should be the states offering the aid which make the choices, not the refugee.

      One minute they are literally fleeing for their lives, dodging bombs and bullets, then next they are picking and choosing which of the richest and most desirable countries in the world would most suit their future career prospects and personal living preferences it isn’t right.

    • #282

      mo
      Participant

      @archer It really depends how long. But if I spent 6-10 years from the age of 15. I’m 25 working, married to a local, have a house, kid, would I just want to go back?

      I think you are looking at it very simply without putting yourself in their shoes. Would you trust peace? Would you take your kids back and risk a return? Would you get your job back? Is your house still standing? Is your family still alive or is your remaining family with you in your new country having married there.

      I could imagine it would be quite traumatic to go back for some of these people, no doubt some want to return. I’d not want to force them home.

      I’m in the US now, married, house, debts, kid, job. I’ve no desire to return to the UK.

    • #284

      archer
      Participant

      @chris I’m not assuming anything really. Maybe war wasn’t the best word to use. My point still stands though, when it is safe to return, how many do ??

      As for Mo Farrah, It will be interesting to see where he decides to settle now his career is coming to an end. Britain hopefully.

    • #309

      fred99
      Participant

      They are in France. A perfectly fine country.

      Fine unless for example they speak English and have an established family in the UK. Is it better for anyone to have someone live a poor, excluded, disconnected and ultimately vulnerable life in France when they could be connected and productive in the UK? Europe’s asylum systems are a mess, it’s totally unacceptable to leave the Eastern fringes carrying the burden because the western states happen to have a buffer one side and a sea border the other (or a moat as for UK and Eire).

    • #341

      Katy
      Participant

      I think that limit is an order of magnitude higher than what the UK does, but I don’t think it’s high enough – nor can it be – for what may be coming. The international community needs to act swiftly – and violently where necessary – to prevent a country disintegrating to the point where most people want to leave it otherwise it’s really going to get unpleasant.


      @andypandy
      Violence may work against poor governments and their like but it’s no solution to famine/drought/crop failure which with the stresses they bring are likely to be the major drivers of movement and conflict in the coming decades (unless something else changes for the worse!). We’re technically ill equipped to counter those forces but I think we are more socially adaptable than we have had to be of late; accepting as people and societies that people and indeed whole societies will as they have before be forced to move seems the easier of the two issues to resolve in the short/medium term. “It’s impossible” isn’t an option and I hope genocide isn’t either though I strongly suspect it will be repeatedly tried.

    • #342

      mark1
      Participant

      @andypandy What do you think ‘the limit’ has been calculated as being? I work in Wigan supporting asylum seekers (quick google should throw up what I do etc). In Greater Manchester, the figure is 1 per 200. We don’t quite reach that figure in Wigan (not enough cheap housing stock) but we have a very well cohessed community. This does place demands on services, but we manage, helped massively by community/voluntary organisations. I believe the UK can take many more (the issue being the uneven dispersal across the UK to areas of cheap housing whose local authorities are possible already amongst the most stretched).

      Your point about violent intervention is utter claptrap. Not only does it rarely work, but most asylum seekers in the UK are not coming from typical war zones. These people usually flood into neighbouring countries in their millions (Jordan, Turkey, Pakistan, Lebanon, Iran).

    • #345

      gala
      Participant

      No, your grandparents or grand grandparents generation fought for your relative freedom, alongside those of the countries we’ve had colonised.

      You, what you’ve done, is just being born in the right place and being a hypocrite.


      @mo
      I didn’t even know where to start there with his post. But its similar in the US, many third and fourth generation immigrants become very nationalistic and anti-immigrant. The best is ‘well my ancestors did it the right way’.. which they typically didn’t anyway.

      Anyway the US has just deported a 39 year old law abiding father after almost 30 years in the US having arrived here as a 10 year old. Leaving behind an American wife and kids. Absolutely inhumane to separate families like that.

    • #348

      mo
      Participant

      @robbie lots say they should return after a civil war.

      if I’d escaped a civil war I’d imagine it would take a lot of convincing to get me to return and risk family again. It’s not like you’ll just be able to leave off where you left.. there will be huge distrust.

      and I’m not sure civil war or at least large outbreaks of violence is that unimaginable in countries like the U.K., especially the uS.

      if Trump is forced out by Mueller I’d not be surprised at all if we saw violence on the streets.

    • #349

      elly
      Participant

      @isac Have you ever been involved in ‘a bit of conflict’? It’s all well and good pontificating from the safety of your arm chair, but you might feel differently when it’s your wife who risks being shot, blown up or otherwise having their life brutally curtailed as they go about their daily business.

      But that being said what I don’t understand is why, if you were in France, you’d want to come here!

    • #350

      flyguy
      Participant

      @everyone For those thinking that refugees have a duty to apply for asylum in the first safe country they enter… it is a nasty piece of disinformation that is deliberately spread all the time by the usual suspects.

      Presumably the aim is to discredit both the way the EU tries to cope with the refugee crisis, and even more importantly, to blanket criminalize any refugees arriving further North, thus my angry reaction

    • #351

      andypandy
      Participant
    • #354

      flyguy
      Participant

      @andypandy You are missing the point spectacularly, and I thought I was the one with English as their second language….

      The UK government cannot refuse dealing with an asylum application solely for formal reasons, whether the person claiming asylum arrived legally or illegally. They can of course refuse asylum and deport the applicant, but they have to hear their case first. This is an essential part of the 1951 refugee convention referenced in the opening sentence of your linked document.

      The point of your document merely is that the UK embassy in, say, Damascus, is not obliged to issue travel documents to someone they suspect will be entering the UK for the purpose of claiming asylum there.

      Le Tocquet does the same thing: If the immigrant is stopped by UK border control while still in France they cannot claim asylum in the UK, as they will have to get there first. Once an immigrant reaches Dover the UK government would be bound to hear their case.

      Whether they arrive legally or illegally is irrelevant, anyone can claim asylum in any signatory country of the UN declaration of refugees. This is the reason inter state agreements like Dublin or Le Tocquet or extraterritorial transit zones at airports exist.

      Nothing at all in your document says that an asylum seeker must seek asylum in the first country they reach, in fact such a constraint would not be permitted under the 1951 convention. In fact, that would not at all be practical. Do you seriously propose that the millions of poor refugees from Syria should be dealt with by the neighboring countries like Jordan, while only the wealthy who can pay for a flight or hire a yacht that takes them to directly to Cyprus or Greece are free to claim asylum?

      Nevertheless, states in common travel areas like Schengenland can make an agreement (between states!) that the first state registering the refugee is stuck with them administratively (an amazingly stupid idea that of course had to fail), and that the states collectively will only hear one application (a better idea).

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