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    • #826

      flyguy
      Participant

      Has society become too germ adverse that it is becoming unhealthy?

    • #827

      martin
      Participant

      99.99% i think you’ll find.

      But how quickly do they come back.14 divisions and they’re back to original numbers.

      Also, all the biocides in waste water are knocking out the sewage works.

      On the other hand, sepsis sounds horrible, so maybe there is some centre ground.

      • #835

        gutted
        Participant

        99.99% i think you’ll find.

        The funny thing is that few seem to question, is whether it kills all species to the same 99.99% level… which they don’t. Some bacteria are completely annihilated, others survive relatively unscathed. Whether the one that is unscathed is pathogenic or not is anybody’s guess. Even if the pathogens are always being annihilated, it’s just a few horizontal gene transfers away from passing on that resistance to the pathogenic strain – and then you’re totally unprotected, and have nuked all the niches, meaning the pathogenic bacteria have no competition to take over your whole body.

    • #828

      robbie
      Participant

      If we didn’t have germs we wouldn’t need bog roll.
      Or would we just die instead?

      We’ve never been particularly clean in our house and we’ve got three healthy children who have rarely had the need to pay the GP a visit.

      Germs are good.

      • #829

        mule
        Participant

        If we didn’t have germs we wouldn’t need bog roll.>

        I spent a weekend in a Hare Krishna place in the 80’s. There were monks there who lived a ‘Vedic’ lifestyle, they didn’t use toilet paper… They all seemed in good physical health.

    • #830

      mark1
      Participant

      There are 10 times more bacterial cells in our bodies than human ones, I’m guessing they’re rather important! Although I have no idea how they benefit us, maybe someone on here knows…

      • #831

        flyguy
        Participant

        Too right they are! They help “tolerise” our immune system so it knows what is safe or dangerous so it responds appropriately. 99.99% of the bacteria form a biome that keeps the 0.01% of nasty bacteria in check.

      • #833

        bigmouth
        Participant

        We don’t need them – some lab animals are raised perfectly healthily in a microbe free environment.

        But – and its a massive but – if we are to live with bacteria, we really need to live with the right ones.

        I don’t think it’s wild to speculate that the next two decades will see a slew of discoveries and treatments based around an understanding of our interaction with our resident microbiota. Most of which can’t (yet) be successfully cultured in a lab for proper study…

      • #842

        mo
        Participant

        I guess if you are counting micro-organisms as animals.

        Wild enough a claim to make me find this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171019143012.htm

        Laboratory mice that are given the gut bacteria of wild mice can survive a deadly flu virus infection and fight colorectal cancer dramatically better than laboratory mice with their own gut bacteria, researchers report.

    • #832

      nab
      Participant

      Absolutely. Plenty of evidence shows this modern obsession with cleanliness is bad for us. Only today on the Radio there was a piece about how Leukaemia rates are rising and its linked with lack of exposure and socialisation of children with germs

    • #834

      timo
      Participant

      Has society become too germ adverse that it is becoming unhealthy?

      I think the exercise aversion and the vegetable aversion are far more significant to our health.

      If widespread use of cleaning products is bad for us (like it is bad for the environment) it may be more directly, inhalation etc., rather than through the removal of germs.

    • #836

      chris90
      Participant

      Children who grow up on farms and/or have pets tend to be less likely to have allergies, and I think asthma is more common among people who grow up in homes with greater cleanliness, but I’m not sure whether that’s down to the products used or to the lack of healthily challenging bacteria. I recently read with a certain amount of surprise and horror about what can be carried into the home from outside on the soles of shoes (ecoli for example), as a kid we weren’t consistent in taking shoes off in the kitchen before going into the rest of the house.

    • #837

      fred99
      Participant

      Given that we are more bacterial than human, trying to kill ever bacteria around us and on us isn’t likely to do us any favours.

      • #838

        isac
        Participant

        speak for yourself – I’m more archaeon, fungal and viral than human …

    • #839

      jim
      Participant

      I think there is some middle ground no? Too clean isn’t great but too little and everyone dies of cholera.

      • #840

        isac
        Participant

        that would be my stance. We live in a sea of microorganisms and viral material. We can’t function well without a decent set of bacteria so we shouldn’t be too fussy with some rigorous exceptions, 2 notable items being general cleanliness and hand hygeine round defecation and separation of foods that need to be cooked from those eaten without cooking.

    • #841

      flyguy
      Participant

      Poorly worded op, as usual from me.

      But are we killing good bacteria as a consequence in our guest to kill harmful germs. Have we become germ adverse which is being played upon by advertisers selling Stuff like bleach and hand gells?

    • #843

      mo
      Participant

      Has society become too germ adverse that it is becoming unhealthy?

      Yes, I think so. There are certain places you want to be germ free like an operating theatre or a food production line, but otherwise a bit of dirt don’t hurt.

      Leaving behind 0.01% of the bacteria is not good because the ones that survive are resistant to the anti-bacterial agent and no longer have any other bacteria competing with them for food. Best to forget the anti-bacterial sprays and use normal detergent and water for most things. If you need something germ free, you want to kill 100%, using either bleach or heat.

      • #844

        andypandy
        Participant

        I’m not sure bleaches and antimicrobial cleaners do leave much of anything behind, the 99.99% claim is more to do with what’s provable than what’s probable. Sure, there probably are some extremophiles that can survive in bleach or other cleaning products but they’re not likely to be found in your kitchen or bog to begin with.

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