This topic contains 20 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  bigmouth 5 months ago.

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  • #973

    fishfaced
    Participant

    according to Fintan O’Toole

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-trial-runs-for-fascism-are-in-full-flow-1.3543375

    Some interesting points made here.

  • #974

    cammy
    Participant

    I’d agree, to me this feels similar to the 1930’s in worrying ways.

  • #975

    Norman
    Participant

    I’m not sure I buy the argument.

    But I can tell you this: I don’t feel like I’m living in a democracy right now. I don’t know exactly how Trump polls in the UK, but I doubt it is very well. I would expect that the mainstream view is that he is a disgusting liar who is causing moral pollution at a serious, dangerous, global scale.

    Yet, as a nation, we’re wining and dining him, grimacing through his insincere back-tracking on his insults; spending our money protecting him from the expression of our views to maintain the pretence that nothing has gone wrong, when we, the public, believe that everything has gone wrong.

    This does not feel like a democracy to me. It feels like bullshit.

    • #977

      roadrunner
      Participant

      ” . . . I don’t know exactly how Trump polls in the UK, but I doubt it is very well. I would expect that the mainstream view is that he is a disgusting liar who is causing moral pollution at a serious, dangerous, global scale.”

      I’m very wary of making sweeping generalisations about the majority view. If the Brexit vote taught us anything, it’s that the ‘mainstream’ (majority) view might be anything! I hope it’s not so, but it’s entirely possible the mainstream view here and in the US is that Trump is ‘the man’, giving a right good kicking to the liberal elite and telling them like it is.

    • #979

      mule
      Participant

      I would say that the rather poorly attended demonstrations yesterday might be an indication of how much people are actually bothered by President Trump.

      How many signed the petition when his state visit was first announced?

      How many could be bothered to turn out yesterday?

    • #981

      Norman
      Participant

      How do you think that the numbers attending a demonstration translate to a representation of the view of the public?

      Here’s some polling data:

      http://www.itv.com/news/2018-07-12/77-of-british-public-have-an-unfavourable-view-of-donald-trump-ahead-of-his-visit-to-the-uk/

      I don’t know what your point is, but the data suggests my hunch that majority of people don’t support our government’s humiliating cow-towing to this utter bellend is correct.

    • #982

      andypandy
      Participant

      Well, the Standard’s saying nearly 250,000 people demonstrated. Even if not as many as a quarter of a million, it’s still a pretty big number for a workday. However, that being said the standard is a crap newspaper ran George Osbourne newspaper and an unreliable source full of fake news.

    • #988

      fred99
      Participant

      While I didn’t personally count the demonstrators I did, for my sins, watch far too much live news yesterday.

      The demo outside the ambassador’s house attracted a few hundred demonstrators and soon dwindled too far less as people left to catch the last transport home.

      Some selective camera shots made the march through London today look much bigger than it appeared in the long shots, the much-touted blimp seemed to attract more tourists than demonstrators and Trafalgar Square was almost full.

      Pictures from demos around the country seemed to be sparsely populated.

      Sorry if that’s fake news but it’s the way I saw it.

    • #983

      chris
      Participant

      This does not feel like a democracy to me. It feels like bullshit.

      Of course it’s a democracy.
      The democratically elected Government of one country has invited the head of state of another democratically country to visit.
      That’s the whole idea of democracy, in that you vote in a Government to act on your behalf. I agree with many of your viewpoints regarding Trump on a personal level, but fully support the UK Governments decision to have Trump over here if they think that’s in the UK’s interest. The electorate can’t pick and choose which decisions they like/dislike on one to one basis and expect the Government to act accordingly.
      If you want to democratically stop future visits, then the UK needs to vote in a Government that will do that.

    • #985

      Norman
      Participant

      You miss my point.

      I don’t think democracy works, or should work, by consulting the public on every policy. Representative rather than direct democracy.

      However, in the case of the Trump visit, it feels as though the expression of the majority view is being actively suppressed and a pretence that “everything is fine” is being effortfully and expensively enforced by the state. Not to the point where the media are on board, thank god.

    • #987

      chris
      Participant

      However, in the case of the Trump visit, it feels as though the expression of the majority view is being actively suppressed and a pretence that “everything is fine” is being effortfully and expensively enforced by the state. Not to the point where the media are on board, thank god.

      The actual majority, or the vocal majority?
      I don’t know anyone who actually cares one way or the other about his visit and certainly not the extent to get angry about it and try and reverse the decision, etc.

    • #984

      kevinj
      Participant

      I’m not sure he is being lavishly entertained or kowtowed to. The whole thing seems more like ‘OK, it’s the President of the US so we have to keep up diplomatic relations, let’s just get this clown in and away as fast as possible,’

    • #986

      Norman
      Participant
  • #976

    timo
    Participant

    So how do we change it? Voting makes no difference (I do vote, but it doesn’t change anything). Do governments actually pay attention to protests?

    • #993

      oldguy
      Participant

      Surely voting does change things? brexit, the weakening of the current government, the destruction of the lib dems (and hence the brexit referendum), devolution, all significant changes brought about by elections or referendums.

      As to protests, not as often as many would hope (but they tend to forget the many who weren’t protesting ) but sometimes they do. Remember the poll tax?

  • #989

    archer
    Participant

    I saw that on someone’s facebook page. My only real disagreement is ‘pre-facist’; facist, plain and simple.

    I don’t like what’s happening to the world. Since my only ways of doing anything about it are by raising awareness where I can and with a cross at the ballot box, I do what I can when I’m able. But I’m still not happy with the direction of travel, to use a horrible management-speak phrase.

    • #990

      Mop
      Participant

      Get a sense of perspective. People in the UK aren’t being assassinated or disappeared in the night for having the ‘wrong’ sort of politics. In the 80’s it was fairly common to see skinheads with Nazi tattoos, not anymore, they’d be laughed off the streets. As a country we’re still broadly progressive, The Equalities Act only became law in 2015; the antithesis of fascistic legislation.

      I can see some parallels with the 30’s, the increasingly polarised politics and falls in living standard after long periods of growth but people should really read some history before concluding that we’re living in some sort of fascist state.

    • #991

      nab
      Participant

      Well you’re right of course, but I don’t think people are saying we (in the UK) are living in a fascist state – they are saying we are currently moving in the wrong direction. Case in point – fashion has changed and they’re not wearing the big burgundy docs anymore, but after a few decades of being laughed off the streets the Nazi types are starting to feel embolded to come out again.

      Trump is more than just a buffoon, and the rise of the far right in the US is more than just Trump. And the far right is enjoying something of a resurgence in plenty of places around Europe too. You’d be quite right to call some of the comments we’ve been seeing hysterical hyperbole, but if you’re suggesting we have nothing to worry about you are dead wrong.

    • #992

      Mop
      Participant

      Well you’re right of course, but I don’t think people are saying we (in the UK) are living in a fascist state – they are saying we are currently moving in the wrong direction.

      Not in the stuff that matters. The mass of people’s attitudes are still progressive, just look at Manchester’s response to the bombing. In the legislature we have had gay marriage and The Equalities Act in very recent years. Any evidence to the contrary?

      Trump is more than just a buffoon, and the rise of the far right in the US is more than just Trump. And the far right is enjoying something of a resurgence in plenty of places around Europe too. You’d be quite right to call some of the comments we’ve been seeing hysterical hyperbole, but if you’re suggesting we have nothing to worry about you are dead wrong.

      But the newly risen right is hardly that far right at all. We’ve seen a resurgence of Nationalistic fervour, and of course, this is worrying in that it has all to often served as tinder for worse but the real danger, as I see it, is the loss of common ground for any sort of political dialogue. People seem more divided now based on emotional reaction rather than any examination of facts or ideology .

    • #994

      sammo
      Participant

      Whilst Trump is a bit of a phenomenon, the USA is less far right now than it was 50 or 60 years ago, when white men were literally the ruling class. Compared to post ww2 it’s quite liberal.

      I think extremist and their views have always existed, in the USA,Europe and the UK. The age of the internet has just made them more visible, and enabled them to organise themselves into groups or political parties.

      The solution is those that sit anywhere left of the far right need to present better arguments to counter them, wasting money flying a baby balloon won’t have present a very educated alternative for those sitting on the fence of being either for or against Trump.

  • #1006

    bigmouth
    Participant

    Surely it must have occurred to many people that Trump is probably working on a way to become President for Life. I doubt if his malformed personality can cope with the idea that the likes of Putin et al, whom he so admires, see him as just another “here today, gone tomorrow” democratic leader.

    I’d say that the second term will be shamelessly rigged. Further progress would be more problematical, but to a man who holds the norms of responsible, moral and decent behaviour in contempt, the suborning of the Constitution of the United States wouldn’t be out of the question. There are plenty of people who’d support him, even if they were to regret it later, when it would be too late.

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