• chris90 posted an update 1 year, 8 months ago

    Currently in the news, with the BBC reporting the following:

    “The German system is estimated to have cost about £600m (726m euros) as an initial set up, and about £700m (793m euros) annually for maintenance.

    The British Plastics Federation estimates it could cost £1bn to set up a scheme in the UK, and another £1bn a year in running costs.”

    Why so much extra in the UK – inflation perhaps in set up costs (when was Germany set up) but running costs should be comparable?

    • The deposit system in Germany started in 2003 but in it´s present form 2006 so 20-30% higher setup costs seems reasonable, those machines that take your bottles aren´t cheap and take a fair amount of valuable retail space up.

      The operating costs depend on the way your drinks market works and how the reycling is going to be done, we have three categories of drinks container and whether in the UK they are all going to be treated the same is going to make a big difference to the operating costs. Not all of our plastic bottles are deposit, plenty go into the general packaging recycling instead.

    • maybe because our-way is to try and get it administrated by countless shops, small and large. If the recycling points were situated on streets like litter bins then the administration would be straightforward. But everything is private enterprise these days and therefore way more expensive than it could be under central government ownership.

      • In sweden for money back on bottles and cans the machines are only in the entrance to bigger supermarkets. For all other waste our local tip is 10miles away and only opens from 2-7pm 2 days a week. The streets are still clean. It’s the attitude of the population that keeps streets clean, not the facilities available.

    • “Why so much extra in the UK – inflation perhaps in set up costs (when was Germany set up) but running costs shoudl be comparable?”

      Because the average UK resident will have to be forced to adopt it, just comparing the rubbish on the roadside verges of the two countries shows the different attitude to litter in general.

    • Energy costs in Britain will be much higher for a start.

      I don’t get why they are going straight for the recycle option though. They should be pursuing the Reduce and Reuse first.

      I really don’t get why people need to buy bottles of water in this country. Apart from maybe for the journey home from Glastonbury!

    • I’ve been wondering for years how you could reduce the numbers of cans and bottles thrown out of vehicles but I’ve also been wondering how you could make a secure system. For example how much cash will the machines contain and how easily will they be broken open?

      I’ll put money on the system working for a few months then some clever barsteward finding a way to cheat the machines.

      • A good start might be to make the registered keeper of the vehicle liable for the littering, as with parking offences and such. It would then be much easier to enforce fines for littering, no need to stop the car nor necessarily to identify the individual responsible. Photographic or video evidence (decent dash-cam footage perhaps?) would be enough.

      • I really don’t understand this problem. I can’t grasp what sort of Fuxxwit thinks it’s acceptable to pitch an empty bottle or can out of the window. You have brought it from somewhere and put it in your car, how difficult is it to take the empty out of the car and bin it once back home again? The one that really surprised me was the jam I was in leaving the M62 to join the M606, I was crawling along for a good 10 minutes next to the festering rubbish on the verge and I was shocked at the amount of beer cans, predominantly carling black label cans. Being the same can in the same location I can only assume that not only is this dxxk head littering he is also drinking beer whilst driving on the motorway.

        Rant over.

        Make the recycle deposit £1 per can or bottle, that will make the lazy bastards bother to bring them back.

      • Err, in all the countries I know with a deposit scheme and automatic scanners you get a credit note which is paid out at any till. Otherwise it´s just done by the cashier anyway, I just throw the crate on the heap and the shopkeeper credits me.

        Because the German system was set up by the industry, not some half-wit in a ministry it´s infinitely flexible in it´s application, the really big supermarket I use has a completely seperate wharehouse and staff who tke your returns and issue the credit note, the medium/smaller supermarkets have machines and the local shop it´s done by the shopkeeper. There are seperate rules for small places like snack bars who only sell individual bottles, they only have to take back what they sell, everyone else has to take everything.

        Like everything, there´s a way to make it work EXCEPT the thorny problem of the VAT on the deposit which the retailer paid (and the customer) but wasn´t accounted for in the “lost” bottles but even in a market as big as the German one it´s not really a problem, maybe €40m or so which is peanuts.

        The problem of pissed-up people throwing cans out of the window is nothing to do with the deposit system, it´s a social problem easiest cured by draconian fines.

        The downside of the system (at least for us) is that because the deposit on a throw-away is roughly three times that of a re-usable bottle it´s really difficult to find canned beer which means if I go on a weekend camping/canoeing trip I have to carry roughly double the weight

    • Rip-Off Britain?

      • Damned right, watch the cost of everything go up. and what mutt says in his post.
        Personally, it’s going to be a pain in the neck.
        All my cans and bottles go in the recycle bin, but with this scheme, I’m going to have to pay more and then have the hassle of saving everything then lugging it all down to a cash-in centre to get my money back.

    • While waiting for a train in Germany last week, I noticed how much cleaner their stations and tracks are than ours. Litter bins in Germany quite often have sections for paper/plastic/waste/metal.

      £1 bn seems quite cheap. Just £16 / person / year to reduce waste. And much of the £1 bn will grow the economy (more jobs, etc).

      To put into perspective, having the BBC costs around £150 / household / year.