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    • #286

      mick
      Participant

      I suspect at the root of many peoples problem with socialism or communism or leftism is that many remember the 70s and 80s, Red Robo and that stuff, and soviet era skodas and Ladas gave an idea of what that system could do.

      However most western economies are massively in debt, and the one that is not that comes to mind, Norway, has had a windfall from Oil. And even here, if Norway had to compensate the world for the damage done by the CO2 that they have released, I suspect they would be skint.

      Then I read this https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2018/jan/16/bankrupted-by-giving-birth-having-premature-twins-cost-me-everything?CMP=fb_gu $2.5 million plus, to save 2 16 month premature babies, really, no matter how its funded, can any system afford that, long term.

      What I wonder is this. Is our lifestyle sustainable, not just environmentally, but financially, long term. Could any system deliver it, left or right, socialist or capitalist . Or is it just a huge Ponzi scam with a can being kicked down the road, that eventually someone somewhere sometime, is going to have to deal with.

      Capitalism or Communism what would you pick?

    • #288

      chris
      Participant

      On an admittedly very simplistic level, there is no global deficit, only balance. We owe, while China (or UAE or any other cash and/or resource rich nation) lends. If we default, our lenders’ wealth diminishes but the sum remains the same as our debts get written off.

      It’s resources you should be focused on. When the rate of asset consumption exceeds the capacity for asset creation, then the global economy must go into reverse. Again a simplification.

    • #290

      dave
      Participant

      What I wonder is this. Is our lifestyle sustainable, not just environmentally, but financially, long term. Could any system deliver it, left or right, socialist or capitalist . Or is it just a huge Ponzi scam with a can being kicked down the road, that eventually someone somewhere sometime, is going to have to deal with.

      Not really, imho. Nothing to do with capitalism vs socialism. Financial cost is simply a proxy for supply and demand of finite resources (broadly, obviously there are various distortions that come into this) and as population continues to increase and expectations of living standards rise, resources become ‘increasingly finite.’ Everyone can’t have everything.

      Regarding medical treatment specifically, it is a significant problem for the NHS that many expect cutting edge treatment to be available to them whatever the cost/benefit reality, simply because it does exist.

    • #292

      elly
      Participant

      Communism gets a bad reputation, but actually the idea behind it is great, it’s jus that people are greedy. I’d suggest that some sort of Scandinavian model with higher taxes is probably the most sustainable, but I am no economist!

      Communism is the most murderous idea. It cost over 100 000 000 lives and the score is not finished yet. And don´ t tell me I am (or my friends and relatives) greedy because I lived in shity communist state witch didn´ t work

    • #294

      mick
      Participant

      @elly I think the point is that there are greedy people out there, who end up controlling things, socialist, capitailist or communist. And thats what buggers the job up.

    • #296

      troll
      Participant

      @elly The idea is that all people should be equal!

      I’m not saying I agree with how Marx suggested it should be implemented, but I do agree with the idea behind it.

      I have spent large amounts of time living in Russia, I do understand how bad it was for the countries that followed it, but this is not due to the idea of equality for all, but due to the inability of people to treat everyone equally and fairly

    • #298

      kerry
      Participant

      @mick Financially: yes, money is just a tool, like all tools it can be modified or used differently as the user chooses.

      Environmentally: Not even close at present levels of consumption without almost unimaginable changes to the care taken in extracting, consuming and reusing resources. With that… maybe but I’ve no idea how we get there since that ‘we’ has to be a global we and we’re not global or instinctively cooperative at scale, we’re tribal and we fight to stay that way. I’d like to think education can balance if not totally counteract instinct but even universal education in a world of entrenched inequality will not suffice and fixing that inequality quickly without seriously exacerbating the environmental challenges or frightening those with privilege and the power to disrupt that process (includes you and me) seems insurmountable. Hopefully brighter minds can be applied to finding a clearer path, we don’t have long and we have much work to do.

    • #300

      troll
      Participant

      @elly Indeed they are not, but does that make them any less valuable as people? I see the principle behind communism as vauling the person and ensuring that all have a decent quality of life, regardless of whether they are not so clever, sick, injured etc.

      The practicalities of this have been shown not to work so well, but the idea behind it really appeals.

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