This topic contains 27 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  mick 5 months ago.

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  • #783

    mule
    Participant

    Trump may have eased the tension over N Korea, although I suspect, reading between the lines, that has more to do with Xi having lent on Kim rather than Trump’s influence, but he really has ignited things in Gaza/Israel by moving the US Embassy.

    Over 50 Palestinian shot dead today and thousands injured by the Israeli Army.

    Horrific

  • #784

    nab
    Participant

    Most of the deaths some 100 yards from the border fence, so there’s not even the excuse they’ve been trying to use of “protecting” against invasion.

    Horrific isn’t the word, not simply the deaths but 1,000 have been shot in the legs and are crippled.

    All for what?

    • #785

      mule
      Participant

      What is the US and Israel’s agenda? Are they trying to provoke a violent response from the Arab world backed by Iran, so as to give them an excuse to bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities?

  • #786

    irk
    Participant

    Until I saw the news late last week, I was blissfully unaware of the atrocity that was unfolding on the border.

    I think, we’ve hit a watershed moment that as always only happens at the cost of bloodshed.

    • #787

      bigmouth
      Participant

      I doubt it.

      As evidence I remind you of the occasion when the IDF were using phosphorous shells to hit hospitals in Gaza. Any comeback on that? Nope.

      The civilised world needs to organise a boycott of Israeli goods, sporting events etc. This country needs to be ostracised in the same way South Africa was.

    • #788

      nick
      Participant

      The civilised world needs to organise a boycott of Israeli goods, sporting events etc. This country needs to be ostracised in the same way South Africa was.

      My MP keeps telling how important it is for both sides to come together and stop the violence!!! FFS!

      “It’s a tricky situation, and how the UK should redouble their efforts to gain peace.”

      I always feel like saying “Double f*ck all, is still f*ck all though, isn’t it!”. I haven’t but I’d love to.

    • #790

      irk
      Participant

      Like all chess Grand Masters, Israel is several moves ahead of stopping this. Anybody who even thinks of saying something contrary or negative towards what Israel is doing, immediately has the Racist Card thrown at them. And Israel has the Trump Racist Card with its own showstopping title anti-zionist.

      Who’s going to raise their head above the parapet and be labelled with one of those titles? Guaranteed to end all debate before it starts.

    • #800

      mark1
      Participant

      I suspect you are equally unaware of what the Syrian army is doing in Yarmouk. A suburb of Damascus, once home to 115,000 descendants of Palestinian refugees, now largely depopulated and destroyed.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/estimated-60-percent-yarmouk-destroyed-violence-group-180427102610652.html

      Quoting from this. Action Group for Palestinians of Syria says at least 3,729 Palestinian refugees have been killed during Syria’s civil war, while 309 are considered missing and another 1,674 are currently detained.

      The major killers of Palestinians it seems are other Arabs.

  • #789

    chris
    Participant

    You would think a nation state built to protect a people following the holocaust would understand what suffering is caused when a group of people are persecuted and perhaps refrain from doing it themselves.

  • #791

    mo
    Participant

    Despite Trump’s braggadocio I hope he feels lonely and small in the wee hours as he contemplates the consequences of his words and deeds. But I doubt it.

  • #792

    dommy
    Participant

    If you’re wondering why a Palestinian in the prime of their life would throw stones at soldiers carrying automatic weapons loaded with dum dums knowing they were probably going to get shot then it’s worth reading this article:

    “It doesn’t matter to me if they shoot me or not,” he said in a quiet moment inside his family’s tent. “Death or life — it’s the same thing.”

  • #793

    fishface
    Participant

    I think that criticism on this is ok, without it having any Anti-Semitic overtones.

    I do have some points to make though.

    1. I don’t think we as outside observers can really understand why the troops open fire unless we’re standing there on their side.

    2. Having said that, this whole situation was known about, the protest was “advertised” in advance. Is bullets the only way this could have been contained. Surely the brilliant minds in Israel could come up with a better method of stopping a riotous crowd from getting across the border, especially when you know in advance that it’s going to happen.

    3. I don’t understand why you would put yourself in the front of a protest like that knowing you would be likely to get shot. I’ve not looked at dommy’s link yet but I doubt that really explains it. Saying life and death are the same is a bit of a platitude. I really think (and I am of course generalising) that we in the West just don’t understand the Arab/Muslim mindset when it comes to life and death. It’s not that life doesn’t matter, I think it’s that they believe that death is just a transition rather than THE end, and this affects their whole attitude to everything.

    As for the question of moving the embassy to Jerusalem, that was merely a catalyst and I don’t think it of itself is that important. All the main players (Trump, Israeli government, Hamas) knew what was likely to happen but they chose to act in the predicted way which made this avoidable loss of life inevitable.

    When I first heard that it had kicked off, my first thought was, oh shit, here we go again. I have no hope of peace happening in this generation.

    • #794

      mule
      Participant

      I really think (and I am of course generalising) that we in the West just don’t understand the Arab/Muslim mindset when it comes to life and death. It’s not that life doesn’t matter, I think it’s that they believe that death is just a transition rather than THE end, and this affects their whole attitude to everything.

      I don’t think this is remotely representative of the “Arab/Muslim mindset”. More the mindset of people who for several generations now have known nothing but desolation, hopelessness, almost casual murder and their lives being worthless in the eyes of the rest of the world. You, (probably) and I are both lucky enough to not have the foggiest clue what that feels like, though I suspect some of your ancestors knew it only too well.

    • #803

      robbie
      Participant

      1. I don’t think we as outside observers can really understand why the troops open fire unless we’re standing there on their side.

      I think we can. The kids pulling the triggers do so because they’re ordered to, they’ve been raised to, fed with a language and narrative of fear, hate and otherness that enables them to keep firing on their fellow human beings for the crime of protesting the miserable existence forced upon them. Their bosses do so because they have to. Their prison will not hold a rebellious population without putting down protest hard before it gathers momentum or negotiating deescalation. They don’t want to negotiate so they kill.

      2. Having said that, this whole situation was known about, the protest was “advertised” in advance. Is bullets the only way this could have been contained.

      Riot control measures would work today but then the protest would be bigger tomorrow. If you want to keep people caged you have to be prepared to kill them. People won’t live in cages.

      3. I don’t understand why you would put yourself in the front of a protest like that knowing you would be likely to get shot. I’ve not looked at Eric’s link yet but I doubt that really explains it. Saying life and death are the same is a bit of a platitude. I really think (and I am of course generalising) that we in the West just don’t understand the Arab/Muslim mindset when it comes to life and death. It’s not that life doesn’t matter, I think it’s that they believe that death is just a transition rather than THE end, and this affects their whole attitude to everything.

      You can’t? They’re people like you but brutalised, stripped of hope and opportunity. If you can’t understand how that drives people to suicidal acts of sacrifice in protest I’d suggest thinking again. It’s hardly without precedent, the story evokes for me horrible images from the past of bodies hanging burned on electrified wire. It’s the will to live rather than merely existing that drives people to risk death.

      When I first heard that it had kicked off, my first thought was, oh shit, here we go again. I have no hope of peace happening in this generation.

      Sorry.

  • #795

    martin
    Participant

    It is a mess. And there is no reason for it. There is no real connection between the embassy and the situation in Gaza. But Hamas is making a connection, by denying that Israel has any right to exist and that there should be only an Arab Palestine from ‘the river to the sea’. Everything else flows from this proposition. Gaza is an economic basket case because the leaders of Gaza refuse to talk to an entity they say is not legitimate. They steal the peoples’ resources to pursue the impossible objective of destroying Israel by violence. These demonstrations are more like organized riots. This video shows the PM of Gaza urging his people to ‘tear out the hearts from their (Israelis) bodies’. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klFbf6VG7uA

    Gaza could have been like a Singapore if they had chosen a different route. It was the first area to become Palestinian after the Oslo accord. It is geographically similar to the greater Tel Aviv area which enjoys a high western standard of living. It has received huge international financial support. All it needs to prosper is to sit down and make peace with Israel – which has absolutely no claim on Gaza except to live in peace.

  • #796

    tom
    Participant

    I keep hearing that Hamas are causing this, and it’s a shame that Hamas are forcing the IDF to kill protesters and children.

    But it’s relatively easy to stop, especially with the military might of Israel, you don’t shot into crowds of people on their own territory. If you’re defending yourself you could wait until people are actually at, in, or across the fence before you start killing them.

    It seems to me that Israel saying, “It’s Hamas forcing people to be shot, it what they want, for propaganda purposes” with Israeli then willingly obliging by shooting the people has gone on too long. For a country as intelligent as Israel, isn’t it time they stop playing into Hamas’ hands by continually giving them what they (Hamas) wants? And to stop killing and maiming people?

    • #797

      martin
      Participant

      I do agree with you a bit. But what you propose is very risky for Israel. It is impossible to know what an out of control crowd of tens of thousands of angry young men with knives, grenades and hand weapons would do to the Israeli civilian population living on the border if they broke through. Did you see the link where the Gaza PM urges slaughter of Israelis? It is terrifying.

      It is very possible that if they did what you say, many Israelis would be killed. And an order of magnitude more Gazans killed to control the situation. The choice at the moment for Israel is between a known bad and a terrible and risky unknown.

      Again, the situation was initiated by Hamas. They should have more consideration for their people – both in this crisis and in the more general one where they are creating a hell hole in Gaza.

    • #798

      tom
      Participant

      This would be fine, but some of these people killed over the last 6 weeks have been nowhere near the fence, so once again it doesn’t really add up Israel saying we’re in imminent danger.

      There’s plenty of footage of people being shot well away from the border fence.

      And we’re not just talking about the 90+ people killed but 2,000 + injured.

    • #799

      martin
      Participant

      Everyone knows a war is chaotic. Sh*t happens. What is happening there is certainly chaotic. And, I think, intended to be. As far as I can make out there are 3 areas. At the back is more peaceful with woman and children and first aid tents. (If chanting kill the Jews can count as peaceful). Hamas is busing people there. and displaying this to the media. In front of this is a line of burning tires to hide young men with catapults and kites to burn Israeli fields. They also perform dramatically for the media. Then out from the smoke are occasional attempts to run forward and break the fence, and throw grenades and molotov cocktails. Those in this area the one that are at most risk of being shot. (So no international media). Note that almost all those killed are young men, and (according their death notices in the Arab media) activists in Jihadi movements.

      Again, there is no need for any of this. Hamas – look after you people. Please!

    • #801

      elly
      Participant

      @martin The problem with

      – consistently showing no regard for proportionality, killing indiscriminately

      – lying about it being “surgical” while the whole world can see it’s anything but

      – refusing to take any responsibility for the situation in gaza

      – repeating the false mantra “Israel wants peace” when the actions of the government show the world that it only wants peace on terms that completely disregard the needs of Palestinians

      Is that it ensures that the current situation is perpetuated, with the next generation of Palestinians growing up with a visceral hatred of Israel, and Jews, that will ensure another 50 years of violence.

      You can, if you like, carry on with Israeli policies and sit and hope that hamas will just stop being blood thirsty racist nutters. Or, given the power Israel has, it can change the policies that generate the hatred and instead work towards peace on a basis which is acceptable in the eyes of the international community.

      Just blaming hamas over and over again, just doesn’t seem to me like a pragmatic strategy to make progress. Netanyahu needs to go, Israeli policy must change, and then Israel can claim to “want peace”. Until then, it is clear to the world that Israel wants violence.

    • #802

      tom
      Participant

      Note that almost all those killed are young men, and (according their death notices in the Arab media) activists in Jihadi movements.

      @martin Let’s analyse this statement, Jondo reckoned “most” of those killed prior to yesterday the 40+ were Hamas terrorists, you say “almost all”. The evidence Jondo produced was an Israeli newspaper with the pictures of ten of the dead having Hamas links.

      So let’s pretend even half of them were Hamas activists intent on murdering Jews, that still leaves 50% innocent victims are you happy with this? Is this simply part of the chaos?

      I’d say the chaos was caused by live fire into crowds. The threat has largely been existential as shown by the lack of Israeli’s injured so far (No I don’t want to see Israeli’s die before, I agree there was a threat).

      Considering the distances between the army and the protesters I find it hard to see how anyone could throw a grenade or Molotov and cause any injuries, it simply defies the laws of physics.

      Which is why the Israelis probably killed to press photographer who flew his drone overhead so we could all see what was really happening. He was a Hamas spy of course, so he deserved to die.

  • #804

    mick
    Participant

    Israeli policy must change, and then Israel can claim to “want peace”. Until then, it is clear to the world that Israel wants violence.

    • #805

      Katy
      Participant

      Israeli policy must change, and then Israel can claim to “want peace”. Until then, it is clear to the world that Israel wants violence.

      These are the official Israeli conditions for peace with Hamas. (Taken from the Arab media, to avoid claims of bias) https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2017/10/17/netanyahu-israel-will-not-recognise-fatah-hamas-reconciliation-deal

      The security cabinet gave a list of seven conditions:

      – Hamas will recognise Israel and desist from terrorism, as per the Quartet conditions

      – Hamas must be disarmed

      – IDF fallen and Israeli civilians held by Hamas must be returned

      – The Palestinian Authority (PA) must exercise full security control in Gaza, including at the crossings, and prevent smuggling

      – The PA will continue to act against Hamas terror infrastructures in [the Occupied West Bank]

      – Hamas will sever its ties with Iran

      – Funds and humanitarian equipment will continue to flow into Gaza only via the PA and the mechanisms that have been established for this purpose

      Tell me. Which of these show that Israel has a policy of wanting violence in Gaza? Which of these do you disagree with?

      By way of contrast, these are from the updated Hamas charter (2017) http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876

      Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.

      At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.

      Now this is a clear call for ongoing violence.

  • #806

    carly
    Participant

    The Gazans have lived in their own self governing area since Oslo over 20 years ago. Israel has no claim on the territory. All that Israelis want is for the Gazans to get out of their lives. As a result Israel has established controls over import to Gaza. Most any thing can go in but has to be checked. Only weapons are not allowed (reasonably) and dual use items, like cement, have to be checked to make sure they have a proper end use.

    Hamas runs a theocratic Jew hating regime that constantly attacks Israel. Suicide bombers, rockets, attack tunnels, mass riots to breach the fence. This is self destructive behaviour. Two Fridays ago a Gazan mob attacked their own side of the crossing to Israel. They returned last Friday. They blew up the gas line and the freight conveyor belt. As a result vitally needed gas cannot enter Gaza. Nor can regular supplies. Only a few trucks with essential medical supplies can now get through.

    This is not the first such thing. In the last Gazan war they aimed rockets at the Ashkelon power station that supplied THEM with half their electricity. They failed but took out two of the 9 power lines into Gaza. And then attacked the Israeli electricity company workers who came to fix them.

    When the final settlements were evacuated about ten years ago, Israel left a complex of greenhouses and irrigation systems that could be used by the Gazans. They were immediately stripped and made useless.

    This is a culture very different from mine and yours. Where becoming a victim or a martyr is a success. I have no idea how this is going to be resolved.

  • #807

    harry
    Participant

    Many years ago Golda Meir said something like “peace will not come until they love their children more than they hate us”

    Unfortunately I think she was right.

    But you’re right, it takes people on both sides at the same time to compromise and talk.

    There was a chance with the offer Barak made (in 95?) but Arafat rejected it and things have gone downhill from there.

  • #808

    garygary
    Participant

    The answer is simple. Do everything I could to rid Gaza of Hamas, so that Gaza could live in peace and prosperity with Israel. Hamas are mainly responsible for the desparate state of Gaza. The PA has not helped. And the world, by not recognizing where blame truly lies, has enabled Hamas to make Gaza a hell hole.

  • #821

    martin
    Participant

    Hamas have just announced that of the 62 killed on the border, 53 were members of jihadist terrorist organizations.

    See https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-gaza-riots-were-members/

    this rather blows away all your righteous indignation that the IDF were massacring innocents. Rather it demonstrates that the IDF probably prevented a massacre of Israeli innocents.

    and regarding the anti semtism issue. People only care when Palestinian lives are taken by Jews kind of proves my point. That the lives of Jews were demonstrably saved from terrorists by the IDF is apparently totally unimportant to you. And, as I pointed out, the fact that far more Palestinians have been killed by ISIS and Assad in Syria has never raised a murmur of protest which goes to show that people seem to be only interested in condemning the country where half the worlds jews live.

    You need to look deeply into your hearts.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  martin.
    • #823

      mick
      Participant

      You’re still ignoring the 1,700 who have been injured by bullets or shrapnel. There’s more if yo want to count the injuries from tear gas etc.

      Are you suggesting these injuries are OK because we got 53 bad guys?

      And by being a member of any jihadi group, is this sufficient to be killed without trial?

      It sort of plays out of Hamas’ hands to, on the one hand want people to be killed for publicity purposes, and the tell the world they we mostly jihadists, don’t you think?

      Your excuse that Hamas are making Israel kill the protesters doesn’t hold water if they then tell every one they we terrorists. Wouldn’t you, if you were Hamas, keep your gob shut and say they were all farmers. You keep telling us Hamas are lying, deceitful bastards and yet they suddenly come out and tell the truth about these 53 people! It makes no sense at all.

      Blimey, isn’t it time you started doing a little more joined up thinking. Maybe remove the Israel can do no wrong blinkers for a while.

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