Most of the deaths some 100 yards from the border fence, so there’s not even the excuse they’ve been trying to use of “protecting” against invasion.

Horrific isn’t the word, not simply the deaths but 1,000 have been shot in the legs and are crippled.

All for what?

Until I saw the news late last week, I was blissfully unaware of the atrocity that was unfolding on the border.

I think, we’ve hit a watershed moment that as always only happens at the cost of bloodshed.

If you’re wondering why a Palestinian in the prime of their life would throw stones at soldiers carrying automatic weapons loaded with dum dums knowing they were probably going to get shot then it’s worth reading this article:

“It doesn’t matter to me if they shoot me or not,” he said in a quiet moment inside his family’s tent. “Death or life — it’s the same thing.”

I keep hearing that Hamas are causing this, and it’s a shame that Hamas are forcing the IDF to kill protesters and children.

But it’s relatively easy to stop, especially with the military might of Israel, you don’t shot into crowds of people on their own territory. If you’re defending yourself you could wait until people are actually at, in, or across the fence before you start killing them.

It seems to me that Israel saying, “It’s Hamas forcing people to be shot, it what they want, for propaganda purposes” with Israeli then willingly obliging by shooting the people has gone on too long. For a country as intelligent as Israel, isn’t it time they stop playing into Hamas’ hands by continually giving them what they (Hamas) wants? And to stop killing and maiming people?

Israeli policy must change, and then Israel can claim to “want peace”. Until then, it is clear to the world that Israel wants violence.

The Gazans have lived in their own self governing area since Oslo over 20 years ago. Israel has no claim on the territory. All that Israelis want is for the Gazans to get out of their lives. As a result Israel has established controls over import to Gaza. Most any thing can go in but has to be checked. Only weapons are not allowed (reasonably) and dual use items, like cement, have to be checked to make sure they have a proper end use.

Hamas runs a theocratic Jew hating regime that constantly attacks Israel. Suicide bombers, rockets, attack tunnels, mass riots to breach the fence. This is self destructive behaviour. Two Fridays ago a Gazan mob attacked their own side of the crossing to Israel. They returned last Friday. They blew up the gas line and the freight conveyor belt. As a result vitally needed gas cannot enter Gaza. Nor can regular supplies. Only a few trucks with essential medical supplies can now get through.

This is not the first such thing. In the last Gazan war they aimed rockets at the Ashkelon power station that supplied THEM with half their electricity. They failed but took out two of the 9 power lines into Gaza. And then attacked the Israeli electricity company workers who came to fix them.

When the final settlements were evacuated about ten years ago, Israel left a complex of greenhouses and irrigation systems that could be used by the Gazans. They were immediately stripped and made useless.

This is a culture very different from mine and yours. Where becoming a victim or a martyr is a success. I have no idea how this is going to be resolved.

Many years ago Golda Meir said something like “peace will not come until they love their children more than they hate us”

Unfortunately I think she was right.

But you’re right, it takes people on both sides at the same time to compromise and talk.

There was a chance with the offer Barak made (in 95?) but Arafat rejected it and things have gone downhill from there.

The answer is simple. Do everything I could to rid Gaza of Hamas, so that Gaza could live in peace and prosperity with Israel. Hamas are mainly responsible for the desparate state of Gaza. The PA has not helped. And the world, by not recognizing where blame truly lies, has enabled Hamas to make Gaza a hell hole.

Hamas have just announced that of the 62 killed on the border, 53 were members of jihadist terrorist organizations.

See https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-gaza-riots-were-members/

this rather blows away all your righteous indignation that the IDF were massacring innocents. Rather it demonstrates that the IDF probably prevented a massacre of Israeli innocents.

and regarding the anti semtism issue. People only care when Palestinian lives are taken by Jews kind of proves my point. That the lives of Jews were demonstrably saved from terrorists by the IDF is apparently totally unimportant to you. And, as I pointed out, the fact that far more Palestinians have been killed by ISIS and Assad in Syria has never raised a murmur of protest which goes to show that people seem to be only interested in condemning the country where half the worlds jews live.

You need to look deeply into your hearts.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by martin .

1. I don’t think we as outside observers can really understand why the troops open fire unless we’re standing there on their side.

I think we can. The kids pulling the triggers do so because they’re ordered to, they’ve been raised to, fed with a language and narrative of fear, hate and otherness that enables them to keep firing on their fellow human beings for the crime of protesting the miserable existence forced upon them. Their bosses do so because they have to. Their prison will not hold a rebellious population without putting down protest hard before it gathers momentum or negotiating deescalation. They don’t want to negotiate so they kill.

2. Having said that, this whole situation was known about, the protest was “advertised” in advance. Is bullets the only way this could have been contained.

Riot control measures would work today but then the protest would be bigger tomorrow. If you want to keep people caged you have to be prepared to kill them. People won’t live in cages.

3. I don’t understand why you would put yourself in the front of a protest like that knowing you would be likely to get shot. I’ve not looked at Eric’s link yet but I doubt that really explains it. Saying life and death are the same is a bit of a platitude. I really think (and I am of course generalising) that we in the West just don’t understand the Arab/Muslim mindset when it comes to life and death. It’s not that life doesn’t matter, I think it’s that they believe that death is just a transition rather than THE end, and this affects their whole attitude to everything.

You can’t? They’re people like you but brutalised, stripped of hope and opportunity. If you can’t understand how that drives people to suicidal acts of sacrifice in protest I’d suggest thinking again. It’s hardly without precedent, the story evokes for me horrible images from the past of bodies hanging burned on electrified wire. It’s the will to live rather than merely existing that drives people to risk death.

When I first heard that it had kicked off, my first thought was, oh shit, here we go again. I have no hope of peace happening in this generation.

Sorry.

Everyone knows a war is chaotic. Sh*t happens. What is happening there is certainly chaotic. And, I think, intended to be. As far as I can make out there are 3 areas. At the back is more peaceful with woman and children and first aid tents. (If chanting kill the Jews can count as peaceful). Hamas is busing people there. and displaying this to the media. In front of this is a line of burning tires to hide young men with catapults and kites to burn Israeli fields. They also perform dramatically for the media. Then out from the smoke are occasional attempts to run forward and break the fence, and throw grenades and molotov cocktails. Those in this area the one that are at most risk of being shot. (So no international media). Note that almost all those killed are young men, and (according their death notices in the Arab media) activists in Jihadi movements.

Again, there is no need for any of this. Hamas – look after you people. Please!

@martin The problem with

– consistently showing no regard for proportionality, killing indiscriminately

– lying about it being “surgical” while the whole world can see it’s anything but

– refusing to take any responsibility for the situation in gaza

– repeating the false mantra “Israel wants peace” when the actions of the government show the world that it only wants peace on terms that completely disregard the needs of Palestinians

Is that it ensures that the current situation is perpetuated, with the next generation of Palestinians growing up with a visceral hatred of Israel, and Jews, that will ensure another 50 years of violence.

You can, if you like, carry on with Israeli policies and sit and hope that hamas will just stop being blood thirsty racist nutters. Or, given the power Israel has, it can change the policies that generate the hatred and instead work towards peace on a basis which is acceptable in the eyes of the international community.

Just blaming hamas over and over again, just doesn’t seem to me like a pragmatic strategy to make progress. Netanyahu needs to go, Israeli policy must change, and then Israel can claim to “want peace”. Until then, it is clear to the world that Israel wants violence.

Note that almost all those killed are young men, and (according their death notices in the Arab media) activists in Jihadi movements.

@martin Let’s analyse this statement, Jondo reckoned “most” of those killed prior to yesterday the 40+ were Hamas terrorists, you say “almost all”. The evidence Jondo produced was an Israeli newspaper with the pictures of ten of the dead having Hamas links.

So let’s pretend even half of them were Hamas activists intent on murdering Jews, that still leaves 50% innocent victims are you happy with this? Is this simply part of the chaos?

I’d say the chaos was caused by live fire into crowds. The threat has largely been existential as shown by the lack of Israeli’s injured so far (No I don’t want to see Israeli’s die before, I agree there was a threat).

Considering the distances between the army and the protesters I find it hard to see how anyone could throw a grenade or Molotov and cause any injuries, it simply defies the laws of physics.

Which is why the Israelis probably killed to press photographer who flew his drone overhead so we could all see what was really happening. He was a Hamas spy of course, so he deserved to die.